Try not to look too far ahead, but keep your eyes on the future.

This is a long discussion of various issues started on June 6th between Butterfly81 and myself...

BUTTERFLY:

First off...i am going to vote for someone that i actually agree with and trust-just so happens to be kerry. im not saying that bush is a scapegoat. im saying hes a dumbass. let me pose this question for you do you believe everything he says? and how can we be so quick to judge? i gave the man 4 years to prove he can be a decent president. he hasnt done the job. hes done nothing to prove hes a great president except start a war he shouldnt have in the first place. oh and the enviornment...what has he done to help it? not only that but he throws religion in our faces. when did this country get so religious that some people cant even listen to the radio shows or the tv shows they want to listen/see? heaven help us if he gets re-elected again.

i dont trust the media at all. thats why i try to research my own facts. you want more? just ask soapboxtop and she will help you understand why not only me but others dont trust bush

TOOTBOY:

Hey butterfly...
You made some statements which you know I've got to call you on...:-)

Senator Kerry: You say you agree and trust him. On what? You are the first person on this blog to actually say that they are voting FOR Kerry instead of against Bush. What reason has he given you that he's earned your trust and respect.

The Environment. Granted, I can't name anything off the top of my head that Bush has done for the environment but then again I can only name one that the Clinton/Gore did in 8 years. That was the federalization of private land. I don't agree with the policy but it is an answer. The environmentalists wanted Kyoto passed (which Clinton never did), wanted alternatives for gasoline (Clinton did not help push this).

Bush didn't start the war. The war in Afghanistan was started on Sept 11 2001. The war in Iraq never ended with the first Gulf war. Even if you don't believe in the Iraqi invasion please note that we were still at war with them since 1991.


This nation has always been a religious one. It is probably the most religious nation in the world (except the Vatican?) One of the first reasons people came here was to able to pray in their own way. Freedom of religion is part of the first amendment. The Declaration of Independence begins that the governments of the world get their power from G0d and mankind gets their universal laws and equality from the Creator. The swearing in of the President, Justices, and Congresspeople all end "So Help me, G0d".

HOWEVER, I agree with you. I don't trust the media either!

BUTTERFLY:

hey toot!!

Well for starters what would a debate be like if you werent in it? i enjoy debating with you as you are one of the rare conservatives out there that doesnt get offensive when i bash bush.

anyhoo moving on...usually i vote For a candidate. I dont like bush and that is well known. however if there was a republican that was running against a democrat that would be better off (think the reagan election when he ran against carter) i would certainly vote for the better candidate. but when it all comes down to it i am a liberal. that said i shall now start the debate.

i like kerry because unlike bush he doesnt want to take my rights as a woman away. bush did sign for a new bill banning partial birth abortions. say all you want how bad it is whatever. the fact is by banning partial births, bush is putting his foot in the door to ban all abortions and it will only be a matter of time before he does (thats if hes re-elected). dont believe me? there was a rally back in april 25, 2004 where well over a million women (and the media never disclosed how many women there were for reasons of their own) that marched for woman's rights...right after that bill was signed. why even care you might be wondering...simple. they know just as i know that bush is against abortion and do what it takes to get rid of it. kerry might not say where he stands on the issues but he never said he would sign a bill such as that. yes his wife was about to have an abortion years ago but that was because of health issues.

now lets move on. at least clinton/gore did one thing for the enviornment. that is one more thing then bush has done.

you can say the war hasnt ended since 1991, but kerry at least wants to end it. did you catch the interview with tom brokaw and george bush? brokaw flat out asked bush when the war would be over. bush never gave an answer.

i look forward to hearing from you again

TOOTBOY:

hey Butterfly,

thanks for the compliment!

I believe, as does an overwhelming number of Americans do that partial birth abortion is abhorant. Now, I do not believe in abortion except in the cases of rape, incest and when the mother or another baby in the womb is at risk of death. so I do believe that abortions should be available for those reasons.

As you know the federal government can sanction abortion as the supreme court did. However, it cannot take abortions away. That is up to the state legislatures. So if the Supreme Court did go against Roe vs. Wade that doesn't mean abortions are gone forever. What it means is that the people of the nation now have the ability to vote on it. The voting goes to the state legislatures who now can ban or sanction abortions. So if you live in a state like NY or Massachusetts there is absolutely no way the legislature will ban it. If you live in a state like Utah they may because that may be the will of the people in the state. So in reality the President of the US can not take away abortions. What he can best hope for is that the state has the right to ban or sanction.

Now you say the Clinton-Gore did one thing more than Bush. But, Clinton-Gore had 8 years of peace to focus on it. And more importantly it was a cornerstone of their administration. Gore wanted to be known as the environmental vice president yet they did relatively zero to promote the environment. Bush, has not made the environment a cornerstone so you shouldn't expect him to do much about it especially in a time of war. You expected Clinton Gore to do something and yet nada.

Kerry in 1997 said that Saddam Hussein and his WMDs were a menace to the world and the US should "unilaterally" take him out.
Now Bush does want to end the war. But a good strategist shouldn't tell his enemies what he is or isn't going to do. By saying that he is going to pull the troops no matter what on a certain date isn't really helping the troops but the enemy. Bush doesn't want to be there. There was obviously good news this past week in Iraq.
I don't think anyone can forsee when this war will end. Remember back in November of 2001 when we invaded Afghanistan and it didn't look like we were making headway for weeks and the press was calling it a quagmire? Well a week later it was all over (at least the main battles). From then on the Taliban was out and the Al Queda in the country was on the defensive and on the run.

Iraq will be the same thing. Hopefully soon the Iraqis will start finding the terrorists and the militias that won't stop fighting. The troops will be there supporting the Iraqis. And before 5 years is up a true democracy will have been started. But if the Iraqis think the US will turn tail and leave they will be in a much weakened position. If they trust in us they can succeed, if they don't then there goes the neighborhood.

Have a good one!

BUTTERFLY:

Hey Toot!!
Anytime for the compliment. you always bring up interesting points. it is nice that we can debate in a nice manner. i really cant stand when i argue with a conservative and they get all annoyed on me and beyond defensive. i like to debate in a calm way. hearing both sides of the story is something i like to hear...you know? you have every right to agree or even disagree with bush. and you certainly have every right to want to vote for him.

what certainly bothers me is that a lot of orthodox jews are siding with bush. as a jew it confuses me simply because most jews are liberal. i dont think bush is good for israel at all as most of the jewish newspapers are printing in their papers. israel is worse off then it was before. during the clinton/gore era there was never this much fighting as there is now. no one wants to go there anymore. i totally got off the point you were making.

i do think there are other ways to resolve conflicts other than fighting. its soo odd how if one fights on the street the people involved go to jail...even if one kills someone they go to jail. yet on the battlefield its different. im by all means not a feminist or hippie even though the quiz i took about whta city i am says otherwise. i just dont think war is the answer. sure 9/11 happened but we are bigger people then they are. why the hell should we send our men and women out like that. im sorry but its still too difficult for me to compare WWII and this war. this war should have been avoided at all costs. your right about if bush says when this war would end it would be good for the enemy. but everytime brokaw asked bush any kind of question he skirted around the issue at hand. i want a leader that i feel can effectively run the country. hey i think guilliani(sp?) would be a better leader than bush. guilliani did a great job handling 9/11. thats it for now...

TOOTBOY:

Hey Butterfly!

I think it is very easy for me to see both sides because I used to be a Democrat liberal. As I've grown I feel the wiser I get. This wisdom has made me more conservative.

I think you are making very good points. If I may I want to kind of twist your points so you can see where I am coming from...

I'll start with the Bush/Brokaw answering. I have no idea when this war will end. The president can't answer that. If you asked FDR in 1942 when this war will end he'd probably say "with the unconditional surrender of Germany, Italy and Japan". Ok when would that be Mr President?
I guess technically the answer is fairly easier because you are fighting governments and established groups. It is harder to fight individuals and loosely formed group such as Al Queda or other terrorist organizations. I mean the British were fighting Sein Fenn for 80 years! And the Israelis have been fighting the PLO since 1964. In WWII the war ended in 1945 but the reconstruction of Japan of Germany lasted well into the mid-1950s. So really the war last into the mid-1950s and actually we are still there. Our troops in Korea are still there since 1953 though the war is over. The Japanese and Canadians have been fighting separatist factions for 15-20 years.
So I don't really think that the president can tell when it's over tell way after it's over. Unless we are sure that all the terrorists are dead it will be an uneasy peace.

You mentioned that if you fight you go to jail yet on the battlefield its different. And you also say we are bigger people why can't we just, I guess you mean, ignore them.
If someone comes at you with a knife, you have to hope you can beat them up, disarm them or kill them. That's self defense. Sometimes you know that this person has threatened you and though you've gone to the police they say there is nothing they can do until they actually try to kill you. You know that it will be to late for you and you'll be dead. So instead you go and take them out first.
Remember, we were attacked first. I'm not even talking about Sept 11. They bombed the WTC in 1993. What did we do? We did exactly what you say we should be doing. We arrested those we could. The rest were put under investigation or escaped. Then during the 'black hawk down' incident our troops came under fire during peace keeping missions. We left immediately. Then they bombed and destroyed several of our embassies, and the Khobar towers in 1996. We looked for the perpetrators. Whoever we found we tried to prosecute though I don't think we found much. Then there was the USS Cole in 2000. Again, we treated this as a justice issue and not as a war.
You see, the people behind this were willing to actually blow themselves up to kill us. We can't understand this. And each time we basically ignored them it made them believe we were weak and easy prey. So then they planned on blowing up bridges and tunnels. we stopped them but then they killed 3000 on Sept 11. Bringing them to justice and doing routine investigations has no effect on them. They know they can only be stopped when they are dead. There is no negoiating with them as they have said time and again. It is their mission to kill everyone that does not believe in their brand of Islam.
So we send our troops to kill them before they can kill us. It is easier for them to kill us because all it takes is one person with a bomb in their Hondo Odyssey to destroy 100s. Or a dirty bomb to kill 1000s or a butcher's knife to kill a family. So we have said that the troops are out there to draw them out so they don't have time and the chance to kill our civilians. Given any chance they will.

If you'll let me I will tell you why the Jewish people are and should be voting with Bush. You kinda answered it yourself.

I'll be back...

BUTTERFLY:

Hello there Toot!
You bring up a great arguement.

i still think there is a better way to prevent these people coming in. we should have better security. look at israel...when was the last time there was a hijacking on an israeli airplane? its been a loooong time. we have poor security and if all this was going on why not tighten our security? i think the answer to israeli conflict is to put a wall around the palestinians (thats another issue with me)

i can understand why you would think FDR would say he wouldnt know when the war would end. i mean hitler was a great power/leader. everyone listened to him because they needed something to listen too. everyone in germany was suffering from poverty well except the jews of course. so their answer-kill of all the jews. i can understand WWII. i really can. and i can see your point of view for the iraq war. but that doesnt mean i think bush is great for the country. aside from war our economy is in the shits. uneployment is at its record high and of course i am concerned about the enviornement. these are issues that bush isnt dealing with. kerry may not be the best option but he is the lesser of the two evils.

as far as the jewish people wanting to vote for bush...i do my own research. i refuse to have someone tell me who to vote for.

cant wait for your reply...in all honesty i do enjoy talking with you. i hope we can continue even after this election

TOOTBOY:

Hey Butterfly!!

I can't believe you actually believe that a wall around the Palestinians is a good thing! See, you are becoming more conservative everyday! :-)
So we agree a something. Since you brought it up I guess I'll have to start here.
The Israelis have learned that the Palestinians cannot be coexisted with as long as they mantain a leadership that is bent on the complete destruction of Israel. Israel has learned this the hard way. The current problems started back in 1993 when the world and the US acknowledged Arafat as the Palestinians leader. Giving a terrorist and murder the keys to a nation is never a good idea. When President Clinton pushed the Israelis and Palestinians together they weren't ready. And he pushed way too hard. He and the Israelis offered Arafat everything he ever wanted. Instead of making off with more riches than ever offered before he (forgive the Biblical reference) had his heart hardened and declared war. It's taken the Israelis 3 years of death to come up with the wall. Meanwhile the hypocritical world is up in arms about it. They treat the Israelis like the murderers when the Israelis would give up their armies right now for peace.

The Israelis learned the hard way how to combat evil. You mentioned the security on the planes.
We obviously have much better security. The problem is that the American people would not have endured the extra security before 911. We complain like babies now because our shoes are checked. Imagine if this were happening before 9=11. There would be an uproar of a facist government and rights being violated. If Clinton or Bush had the Federal government taking away people's knitting needles there would be law suits galore. We accept it not but still begrudgingly.

I'm not quite sure about what you were trying to get at with Hitler. I'm sorry but I missed the point, you may have to repeat it.

You mentioned a shit economy. Record high unemployment? Where are you getting this from? Before Jimmy Carter left office the unemployment rate was 13% compared to 5.6 now. In fact 5.6 is better than average for the last 30 years. Interest rates are at 40 year lows, the economy has added 1 million jobs in the last 3 or 4 months. Now, I don't give Bush the credit, that's the American people. If you think the economy is in the shits you haven't been reading the latest economy numbers. And even gas prices aren't as awful as we complain about. If they were people would be cutting down on their driving and vacations. I haven't seen this. Back in the late 1970s gas prices and lines were so long it was common for people to wait 30 minutes to an hour to get to the gas pump. Considering we haven't built a new oil refinery snce 1978, I'm surprised we don't have long lines now.

The enviroment is certainly not the top priority now. Remember we are in a war. The commander in chief shouldn't be worried that worried about this whoever is president. I'm not sure what you'd like done. I'm sure whatever it is the American people will find a way and a method to resolve it. Especially if there is the motivation of money.

I promise I will get to the Jewish vote soon!

BUTTERFLY:

Hey Toot!!
Ahh my friend you are mistaken about one thing. i am not getting conservative nor would i ever. it was funny cause last night i asked the bf what he thought i would be like if we lived back in the 60's-70's. he said he didnt know if i would be a hippie. but then he thought about it and said i would be the leader hippie...that i would be the one to go off and organize all the events needed for rallies and the like.

but anyways that was way besides the point. the only reason why i said there needs to be a wall around the palestinians is becuase they blow up israelies on a daily basis. and no it didnt take only 3 years for them to recognize this. some of the leaders of israel werent as aggressive as Ariel Sharon. He wont take crap from anyone and it shows. im not saying the leaders before werent effective im saying Sharon is aggressive. the israelies have been more than willing to give the palestinians jobs and to have them come over whenever they want. not only that, but they have to pass through extensive boarders to get through so it was as if there was a wall beforehand.

i dont complain about my shoes being checked because id rather have extra security then have (G-d forbid) something happen. our security still isnt up to par. not too long ago i went to fl on a new airline. i actually took two diff airlines. the first one was song...which wasnt too bad. it was like jet blue except you had to pay for food...but i had my own personal tv it was great i was in heaven. the other airline i took was usa 3000...a new airline that was crappy. the seats were beyond filled and when i asked the flight attendant if i could move up he said no it was a book flight. to make a long story short two seats next to me were empty and i was sitting on a plane and my luggage was not on. why you may ask? well they took off everyone;s luggage only to have us reclaim it again. seems as if two extra baggages came on board and there might have been or there was a bomb in it. our security still sucks. in newark and even in jfk it isnt as high the security as say ft lauderdale.

not to be mean or rude but im not sure where you are getting that the unemployment rate is being lowered....its been unchanged and there are still 8.2 million americans without jobs. and yea gas prices arent as high as carters time but they are still pretty high. the reason why people arent cutting down on their driving time is because people need to drive to work and back. i noticed people driving on memorial day and the traffic was no wheres near bad as it was years before. i dont drive as much because i refuse to spend $20 to fill my car halfway. when i graduated last year i thanked my lucky stars my dad had his own business. if he didnt i would be in grad school now because the job market is terrible. so many people are in grad school because of the job market.

btw you like my new blog layout?

TOOTBOY:

I like the blog layout though it's a tad too girly for me!

This is a nice discussion. We are talking about tons of different issues at the same time though they all seem related.

BUTTERFLY:
Toot!!
im such a girly girl...my fav colors are pink purple and yellow. i love make up and i love to shop. i will go to a ball game though and will scream just as loud as the next guy for my team.

it is cool we can talk about different issues

TOOTBOY:

Ok, I've got a quick second.

You threw a lot my way in your last post...
1)Lead Hippie? Is that a good thing? Depends on what music you are listening to! Hippies pretty much got little done
2)Like I said before, your stance on the wall keeping the Palestinians out is a conservative stance. The liberals in the US, and in Israel loathe the wall. It has been back by the President while John Kerry has told a crowd of Jews I thing and the week previously told a crowd of Arabs another. But I digress.

3)You don't complain about the security now but if this security had been in place before 9-11 and security guards were detaining old men and young girls there would've been a huge backlash. Think about the way we thought before 9-11.
Now, I agree it still isn't safe enough for me. On the other hand I ride the least terrorist safe mode of transportation everyday. The LIRR and the subways are not protected at all except for maybe the vigilance of the ridership.

4) I hear Song airlines is pretty decent. I didn't know about Usa 3000. Thanks for the tip

5)About the unemployment: The US Labor of Statistics says that the unemployment rate is at 5.6 % with adult women having a lower rate (4.8) vs men (5.2).
I looked up rates. I will go by May of an election year
May 1968: 3.5 - Nixon won
May 1972: 5.7 - Nixon reelected
May 1976: 7.4 - Ford lost
May 1980: 7.5 - Carter lost
May 1984: 7.4 - Reagan reelected
May 1988: 5.6 - Bush won
May 1992: 7.5 - Bush lost
May 1996: 5.6 - Clinton reelected
May 2000: 4.0 - Bush won
May 2004: 5.6 - ???

What does any of this mean? I don't know. Except for May 2000 and May 1968 this is the lowest May Election year unemployment level (tied with 2 other times). I guess it doesn't mean much except that it is an average unemployment level. It's not the best nor the worst. It is at it's lowest level since Sept/October of 2001 when for the first time during the Bush administration unemployment rose over 5%.

In fact since Jan 1948 the average monthly unemployment rate is 5.5%. So this is exactly average.
I'm not saying this is something to be proud of but then again it's not as bad as some are making it.

Now Gasoline could be much worse. In 1980 the average gallon adjusted for inflation cost $2.59. According to EIA it's at 2.03 average which let's face it is about 35 cents more than last year. In this respect I'd say you are right that the prices are much higher than the adjust for inflation average of the last 50 years.
I predict that prices will be at least 10 cents less by the end of July / early August.

BUTTERFLY:

Whew thats a long one. lets see if i can get everything in.
1. I think by lead hippie my bf meant that i have a lot of the ideals they had. im very conscious of the enviornment (or at least try to be) i dont buy beauty products unless they say not tested on animals. and yes i think the music i listen to has a lot to do with my bf saying id be a lead hippie i dont mind cause i liked a lot of what hippies did/said.

2. Im still not a conservative. But i think most people that are in israel and most jews will agree that something needs to be done with the palestians. i think most would agree of a wall but dont want to be called inhumane towards other. the palestinians need to be in their own little area regardless. lets face it they can go wherever they want and will be welcomed with open arms. jews? forget it. no one likes us they just tolerate us. arabs can keep coming in and try to take us done but when all is said and done the israeli army is one of if not the best army in the world. there is a lot of national pride over there-something america lacks.

3. IF we had tighter security before 9/11 i dont think i would mind too much. i used to fly all the time between florida and ny as my parents are divorced. i lived in fl with my mom while finished up schooling down there and moved up here to be with my dad while going to college. driving back and forth from hofstra to nj every weekend is not fun. and im sorry anything can happen while stopped in traffic on the verrazzano. i cant even tell you all the feelings i had run through me on 9/11 knowing i couldnt drive home as all the bridges and tunnels were closed. i had none of my family near by. the thought of that ever happening again-let there be tighter security! you are more than correct about the lack of securities on the LIRR and the subways. as a frequent rider of the subways (and i did take the LIRR a few times) its scary for a small girl like me. i wont go to penn station alone at night unless i have someone with me. the people are sketchy. and im sorry but i get scared when i stand on the platform even when im with my bf (though he is a big guy and he doesnt look like someone should mess with him) cause i feel like someone can easily push my on the tracks.

4. any time for the tip. personally i think jet blue is the best. but song will more than likely catch up if they start giving sodas out for free.

5. The problem i have with what you wrote in 5 is as follows:
so bush won and the unemployment rate was at 4.0 well he didnt make it that way. who was the president before him? clinton was. clinton helped get the economy out of a recession that bush sr but us all in. if you see what you wrote back in 1992 unemployment was at 7.5 when bush sr lost. clinton had to make those numbers disappear which is why when he was re-elected it was at 5.6. im not a math major so im not even gonna try with that one. but the numbers speak for itself. after his time was up it was down to 4.0. sot he started with 7.5 and ended with 4.0 thats pretty good and i dont think you can deny that one. bush jr on the other hand started with 4.0 and ended with 5.6 in less than 4 years.

btw i called the prediction about the lowering of the gas prices months ago. of course they will be lowered...i still wont vote for bush.
nice argument btw

TOOTBOY:

Hey Butterfly

I will skip #2 because I promised you a whole thought process on the votes of the general Jewish population. I will (eventually) get to it.

1) I want to state that I am generally a decent environmentalist. I recycle as best as I can and even helped establish a paper recycling program in the office building I used to work in. I do not eat any animal that walks on the ground or fly in the air. I'm not a vegetarian though (or vegan) as I eat fish and seafood and dairy and eggs and such.
i'm an activist of sorts as I'm always calling my local town board about issues as well as other government agencies that have policies that irk me. :-)
3) I don't believe the American public would have stood for the super extra security pre 9-11. When I said that the subway and LIRR are not safe I didn't mean from other NYers. I meant from terrorists. It's very easy for a suicide bomber to run into a crowded train like the shuttle from times sq to grand central. Or go on the LIRR with a bag of luggage filled with explosives or worse. An Amtrak train filled with explosives pulling into Penn Station is too horrible to think. Now Mayor Bloomberg is planning on having police start random checks on trains and subways this summer especially during the Republican Convention. And in every newspaper in the area there are op-eds and letters to the editor crying that the Mayor is a fascist because these checks will cause delays of 30 minutes or more. it hasn't even happened yet and YET they are complaining about it. And this in a city in which 2 foreign terrorist attacks have taken place in the last 11 years. That's why I know that the American public wouldn't have allowed the heavy security we see now at the airports.
(Phew!)

4) What's up with airlines giving you no or 1/2 a cup of soda? The soda costs them $.10. Give me the whole can please.

5) I'm not quite sure how much influence a President has on the unemployment level. I don't think it's that much except when it comes to the top marginal tax rate. It's the American people, congress and local governments, and other events.
The unemployment rate was 4.0 in may 2000 and 4.2 when Bush took over in January 2001. The unemployment didn't make a major jump by going to the 5% level and above until 9=11 which cannot be blamed on the President (despite the conspiracy theories). So the unemployment that we've seen hadn't occured until 9-11 and after.
I know people want to give the Presidents credit and blame for unemployment but unless the Presidents are hiring lots of people personally there is not as much they can do.

If you can want to blame Bush for the unemployment levels that's your right. I'd say one reason to blame him is that he signed bills adding the # of months people can collect unemployment benefits which does not encourage people to look for work. I agree with increasing the time for the benefits but it does work against the unemployment levels.

Remember the recession started in November of 2000. Do I blame Clinton for that? No. I blame the higher oil prices that occured in early 2000 and more importantly the computer geeks that scammed us into believing the Y2K hoax. Companies spent billions which turned out to be the biggest waste of money in the history of the world. These companies spent 2000 firing computer geeks, and not having money to invest and handle other real crisises. Shortly after the country and the rest of the world, especially Japan, went into a recession.

6)The gas prices always goes up in the spring and down in the summer as demand for oil for heating goes down.
Talk to you tomorrow.

BUTTERFLY:

mornin toot!!
i think i should start a new entry with all your points and debating them. more than likely it will be soon when i do it seeing how the responses are getting too long over here.

so im only going to talk about 4 until i write something in my blog. airlines are pissing me off. with jetblue they give you free snacks and sodas so i cant complain. but other airlines have this thing where they dont like to feed us. and when they do feed us its usually somethign crappy. if im to know in advanced there is a meal being served id like the option of a kosher meal-i dont eat ham i dont want it near my plate. not only that i am a lot like you-i only eat fish and chicken. even chicken i find myself eating less and less. one day i will become a full fledged vegeterian.

im ranting and rambling

TOOTBOY:

I'm not a vegetarian. I'm a non-meat eater which is different. If I didn't have fish to eat I'd starve in any restaurant I go to. Now when I go I only have 4 things on the menu to choose from but that is better than none. I don't recommend going cold turkey (forgive the pun). It doesnt't bother me that other people eat meat and I don't get uptight if my food touches meat. I do hate it if I am eating something (like a pasta dish) and there's little pieces of meat or something in it and someone tells me it's in there. You know I'd rather not know because now I can't eat it and I'm not happy I ate some of it already. So don't tell me I shouldn't be eating it. Ignorance is bliss!

BUTTERFLY:
im also a non meat eater...but im thinking of becoming a vegetarian...not sure ifi can though. i do enjoy tofu on some occasions. if i am sounding incoherent please forgive me as it is so hot that im becoming delirious. btw im still not a conservative